Doug Mason

Joined

• started 457 topics
• posted 2,351 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by Doug Mason

• 
  10

  The "70 Years" -- without dates!

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is the story of the 70 years with no dates!.

  first, see the picture at:.

  http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/outline_decay_and_fall_of_judah.pdf.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  Canon,
  
  You seem to have a hang-up with Carl Jonsson. It is interesting that he and we came to the same conclusions independently, at different times, and separated by half a world. Let me explain.
  
  As a newly baptized SDA in 1964, I wanted to be able to answer the JWs who kept calling at my door. (I left the SDAs 20 years ago, so I know what it means to leave a small, intensive religious group, such as the JWs).
  
  Quite serendipitously, at that time I happened across a study written by Geoff Rogerson, an SDA living in the small West Australian country town of Denmark. He provided a detailed account of the WTS’s errors with its neo-Babylonian chronology.
  
  Max Hatton, a JW working at the Town Hall in the nearby West Australian town of Albany, encountered Geoff. As a result, Max conducted a very deep study of the subject and just like COJ did more than 15 years later, produced the result of his investigation and left the WTS. I fortunately got hold of a copy of Max’s study. I still have Geoff’s and Max’s papers.
  
  At the same time, I decided that the average SDA would not be able to grasp the essential elements of Geoff’s and Max’s studies, so I started producing my own material on chronology, as well as on other WT-related topics.
  
  I was particularly incensed when the “Aid” book came out. When the first part was published, which contained the article on “Chronology”, I discovered that it contained many deceitful misquotations and misinformation. (I have not gone to your original sources to see if you do the same).
  
  I produced deeper works during 1973/1974 and for the remainder of the 1970s I assisted Bruce Price with content on chronology for his “Witness” magazine. I do not know the circulation of Bruce’s magazine, but I received a nice letter from Edwin Theile, congratulating us for the work we were doing.
  
  My interest in the neo-Babylonian chronology has always been to use that information to help break the WTS’s mental stranglehold, given the authority it claims based on that chronology. My interest in the use of the neo-Babylonian chronology goes no further. When the WTS’s claims are seen to be false, it is then possible to provide the message of the True Gospel, such as described in Romans and Galatians.
  
  Hence your additional “70 years” are of no interest. The WTS does not teach them, so they are irrelevant and insignificant. They do not provide the WTS with its authority, so I ignore them as being pointless.
  
  You might have left the WTS, but I doubt that the WTS has left you.
  
  -----------------
  
  Let’s consider some of the points you made in your response to my “Decay and Fall of Judah”:
  
  Canon: I can see where one could apply a 70-year period of servitude by the nations beginning anytime that Babylon conquered any nation.
  Doug: You therefore agree with Jeremiah, for that is what he taught. And he included Judah among those nations.
  
  Canon: You could not come up with the concept of the 50 years without any uninspired commentary because that comes from secular history.
  Doug: We know that the 70-year servitude started in the early years of Jehoiakim. The length of his reign and that of Zedekiah indicate how long afterwards Jerusalem was destroyed. The destruction of Jerusalem, unnecessary that is was, took place some 20 years after the 70 years had commenced. (70 – 20 = 50)
  
  Canon: But that is a point besides a separate 70 years for the land to pay back its sabbaths.
  Doug: Why is it separate? According to the Scriptures, the land was already desolate while there were people living in it – years before Jerusalem was unnecessarily destroyed. You have a limited understanding of the Hebrew for “desolate”.
  
  Canon: I have no argument against your concept of a 70 years that begins before the last deportation, if you want.
  Doug: Thank you. It’s not what I want, it’s what Scripture says. That is the 70 years. And Jeremiah also tells us that God would heed his people if they called on him, as happened with Daniel in his great prayer.
  
  Canon: You don't see 70 years of desolation to necessarily be connected with the servitude of these nations.
  Doug: Jer 25:11 says “this whole country (Judah) will become a desolate wasteland, and (all of) these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” You overlook the shades in the Hebrew that are covered by our single word “desolation”. The degree of their desolation depended on their obedience, including obedience to the LORD’s instruction that they were to continue to serve Babylon for 70 years. The Judahites maintained an obstinate disobedience to the 70 years servitude so that Jerusalem, along with its temple, was unnecessarily destroyed.
  
  Canon: The chronology of the 70 years of desolation starting with the last deportation would be a separate 70 years.
  Doug: That is pure invention. Besides, people continued to live on the lands of Judah and Israel.
  
  Canon: The 70 years the land of Judah and Israel had to remain desolated, and it was not desolated until the last deportation.
  Doug: Another pure invention. Israel was desolated before Manassah’s time. Judah was desolated as soon as Babylon took the land. It was CHORBAH, the city became unnecessarily SHAMEM. There are about 6 Hebrew words that are used to describe shades of desolation.
  
  Canon: So you have the same position as Olof Jonsson here.
  Doug: Thank you for telling me. If that is so, it is interesting that he and I agree, quite independently. JWs, such as you, Scholar and the GB have a paranoid concern about COJ’s work.
  
  Canon: (Olof Jonsson) goes to a lot of trouble to establish that there would be a 70-year period of servitude for the nations to Babylon.
  Doug: There is no trouble showing this, because that is precisely what Jeremiah says.
  
  Canon: But that doesn't prove those last deported didn't serve 70 years as well.
  Doug: They did not have to.
  
  Canon: It doesn't disprove that the land of Judah did not remain completely desolated for 70 years as well following the last deportation.
  Doug: This is completely pointless and of no value. At least you are showing there is no relationship between Jeremiah’s warnings and prophecies, and your imagined “70 years”. “Doesn’t disprove … did not remain”. How many double negatives can you put in one sentence.
  
  Canon: What you have to do is to DISPROVE that the length of service of those last deported was not a 70-year period.
  Doug: Why do I have to? The length of the “servitude” following the deportation in Nebuchadnezzar’s 23rd year is of no interest, because the WTS does not hang its authority on the date of that event.
  
  BTW, Are some of the words in your post colored red? If there are, I am sorry but I cannot distinguish red text from black text. Try using another color or method that stands out.
  
  Doug
• 
  10

  The "70 Years" -- without dates!

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is the story of the 70 years with no dates!.

  first, see the picture at:.

  http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/outline_decay_and_fall_of_judah.pdf.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  It looks like you will have to copy and paste the address:
  
  http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/Decay_and_Fall_of Judah.pdf
  
  It appears to me that you cannot paste the "redirect" address.
  
  Doug
• 

  Finding my study on the "70 years without dates"

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i very recently posted the url of my study on the "70 years without dates".

  i hope the difficulty -- brought about by yahoo deciding to introduce a redirection -- has not prevented people accessing the study.

  i suggest that the following address be pasted into the window of your browser (explorer, firefox, etc).

• 

  Doug Mason

  I very recently posted the URL of my study on the "70 years without dates".
  
  I hope the difficulty -- brought about by Yahoo deciding to introduce a redirection -- has not prevented people accessing the Study.
  
  I suggest that the following address be pasted into the window of your Browser (Explorer, Firefox, etc).
  
  http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/Decay_and_Fall_of_Judah.pdf
  
  Doug
• 
  10

  The "70 Years" -- without dates!

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is the story of the 70 years with no dates!.

  first, see the picture at:.

  http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/outline_decay_and_fall_of_judah.pdf.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  JC,

  Thank you for your comments about my presentation.

  From your comments, it appears that I have not made myself crystal clear. My basic premise is:

  1. God condemned the Jews to the same fate as the Israelites. In this context, he made his first judgment against Judah during the long reign of king Manassah.
  2. Apart from king Josiah, Judah continued its moral decline despite several warning by God that he would wipe them out. He pleaded with them, saying that he would forgive them and make them strong and prosperous, if only they would change their ways.
  3. The reformist king Josiah only brought a delay in the execution of God’s judgment.
  4. Babylon’s defeat of Egypt meant that Judah was now subservient to Babylon. At the same time, the LORD declared that all of the named nations had to serve Babylon for 70 years. This included Judah. Any nation that followed God’s declaration would serve their servitude in their own land. Any nation that rebelled would be desolated.
  5. Despite several pleas by God for Judah to obey his edict, Judah continued along its long path of disobedience. Their continuing disobedience to the already imposed 70-years servitude would result in God executing the judgment that he had brought down during Manassah’s long and evil reign.
  6. Finally, and unnecessarily, God had his city destroyed, and asked that people be left to tend the land.
  7. The 70 years servitude to Babylon continued for a further 50 years after Jerusalem was destroyed.

  There is thus in the Biblical account no need for Jerusalem and Judah to have suffered absolute (SHAMEM) desolation. They could have remained in their desolated (CHORBAH) places during the declared 70 years, just as their neighbors had.

  There is thus no relationship between the length of the servitude and the timing of Jerusalem’s destruction. (The people considered the land depopulated simply because it had been handed over to the Babylonians, as shown in my presentation).

  My presentation is “objective” since it reports the Hebrew scripture and it fully accommodates the “70 years”. I believe it is complete in that it canvasses the full context of the 70 years as well as the execution of God’s judgment on Judah and Jerusalem.

  The WTS starts its calculations from the end of the “70 years” and then travels along the path leading to the destruction of Jerusalem.

  The factual evidence from the Bible shows that the WTS should have traveled from the start. If they worked from the terminus, they should then have traveled back in time along a path that ignores the destruction of Judah and Jerusalem.

  In my presentation, I relied solely on the Hebrew Scriptures. The only uninspired commentary that I used was mine. I did not make reference to Josephus or to any other secular source. I have no intention of widening the scope. My points are adequately shown by citing Scripture.

  I deliberately made no reference to dates or even lengths of kings’ reigns, since that provided an opportunity for a distraction from the clear point I was making. The dates do not matter; the lessons do.

  I welcome information on corrections, omissions, improvement, and so on.

  Doug
• 
  10

  The "70 Years" -- without dates!

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is the story of the 70 years with no dates!.

  first, see the picture at:.

  http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/outline_decay_and_fall_of_judah.pdf.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  I do not know why the second link does not work directly.

  I suggest that you copy and paste the second link into your browser.

  If that does not work, copy and paste the following address into your browser.:

  http://au.share.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/Decay_and_Fall_of_Judah.pdf

  Doug
• 
  10

  The "70 Years" -- without dates!

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is the story of the 70 years with no dates!.

  first, see the picture at:.

  http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/outline_decay_and_fall_of_judah.pdf.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  It appears that the second link is redirected by Yahoo to:

  http://au.share.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/Decay_and_Fall_of_Judah.pdf

  Doug
• 
  10

  The "70 Years" -- without dates!

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is the story of the 70 years with no dates!.

  first, see the picture at:.

  http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/outline_decay_and_fall_of_judah.pdf.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  Hi VM44,
  
  I don't understand why the hyperlink does not work.
  
  I notice that when I copy and paste the address into my browser, that it works:
  
  http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/Decay_and_Fall_of_Judah.pdf
  
  Although my browser comes up with another address:
  
  http://au.share.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/Decay_and_Fall_of_Judah.pdf
  
  I don't understand. If you cannot get hold of the file, I suggest that you go to the web site:
  
  http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940
  
  and then navigate through the "Scripture", "Jehovah's Witnesses" and "Babylonian Captivity" tabs. Then scroll down to locate the download of "Decay and Fall of Judah".
  
  When I do that, I somehow get the address:
  http://au.share.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/Decay_and_Fall_of_Judah.pdf
  
  Don't ask me.
  
  Doug
• 
  10

  The "70 Years" -- without dates!

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is the story of the 70 years with no dates!.

  first, see the picture at:.

  http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/outline_decay_and_fall_of_judah.pdf.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  Here is the story of the “70 years” with no dates!

  First, see the picture at:
  http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/Outline_Decay_and_Fall_of_Judah.pdf

  Then read the book at:
  http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/Decay_and_Fall_of_Judah.pdf

  This story has everything that would make a good movie. Set against the powerful nation of Egypt with its famed pyramids and the glory of Babylon with her renowned Hanging Gardens, is the story of a small agrarian nation of Judah, deeply influenced by the wicked practices of its surrounding neighbors.
  The story has everything – murder, child sacrifices, cannibalism, male prostitution, power politics, spiritualism, and religion. What else would a movie want?

  At the same time, the story shows that the Watchtower Society starts its analysis of the “70 years” at the wrong end, and that it then travels along the wrong path. Even more intrigue.

  Doug
• 
  10

  Sanctity of Blood

  by Mile 0 in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  this is why i believe the wts is so totally wrong on the blood issue.

  blood, as it circulates through a living organism, is merely a bodily fluid.

  it does not take on any special significance until that organism expires.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  As far as the WTS is concerned, the matter of blood is ONLY religious, never medical.Unfortunately for the WTS, throughout both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures, "blood" ALWAYS means DEATH, usually a violent one.

  It never means life.Go to my site at http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/blood.html and download the material written by Stibbs and by Leon Morris.

  When blood was presented in the temple service, it showed that the animal was dead.

  When Noah was told to ensure there was no blood in the meat, this was to ensure the animal was dead. This was written to counter the cruel practice of stripping flesh from a living animal and eating the flesh while it was still quivering with life and the blood was dripping from it. The writers cast the story into Noah's time, thereby they were writing against their heathen neighbors, probably in an attempt to immunise the Jews from the heathen practices.

  In the transfusion of blood, whether whole blood or some parts of it, the presence of the blood does not indicate the death of the donor. Rather, it is a gift given out of love and concern.

  Doug
• 
  13

  What is the supposed biblical basis for the non-acceptance of blood

  by Lotus65 in

  1. watchtower
  2. medical

  i want to know what the supposed biblical basis for the non transfusion of blood is with the jw's so that i can use it at the convention when im with my family

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Doug Mason

  Throughout both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures, "blood" ALWAYS means Death, usually a violent one. Go to my site at
  
  http://au.geocities.com/doug_mason1940/blood.html
  
  and download the material written by Stibbs and by Leon Morris.
  
  In the transfusion of blood, whether whole blood or some parts of it, the presence of the blood does not indicate the death of the donor. Rather, it is a gift given out of love and concern.
  
  Doug